Talking Music and Selling Records with Shawn Cephas

Liam Dempsey: Welcome to Start Local, where we talk with business owners, leaders of nonprofits, and other members of our community focused on doing business in and around Chester County, Pennsylvania. Each episode will provide insight into the local business scene and tell you about opportunities to connect with and support businesses and nonprofits in your local area.

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Erik Gudmundson: Welcome to Start Local. I’m Erik Gudmundson, and I’m recording this conversation with my co-host, Liam Dempsey. Liam, how are you doing today?

Liam Dempsey: Hey, Erik. I’m doing really well. Thanks for leading the ship today. Appreciate it.

Erik Gudmundson: I wouldn’t say I’m leading, but I’m happily on the ship, that’s for sure. And today we’re talking with Shawn Cephas. Shawn is the owner of Forever Changes, that is a record store in Phoenixville, Pennsylvania. Hello and welcome, Shawn.

Shawn Cephas: Guys, how are you doing? Thanks for having me on here.

Liam Dempsey: Shawn, it’s a real pleasure. So glad that you could make the time to join us today.

Erik Gudmundson: I know I am very excited for the conversation because I am a very passionate music fan. And so I want to jump right in, but start with the basics to get all of our listeners on the same level here. 

Shawn, you sell records and a few CDs at a shop in Phoenixville. We’ll say that again. You sell records. So, give our listeners an overview of the sort of music they can find at your store, Forever Changes.

Shawn Cephas: Sure thing. Generally, I like to say everything, but because it is a smaller store, it’s not, it’s not siren, it’s not some of the bigger stores on the West Coast, you know, there isn’t everything.

I personally, since I am a smaller store, I allow myself to carry the genres that I’m most familiar with. And so what you won’t find there are like, you know, more, more current like metal and every sub genre under that, because there are like 30 sub genres under the title of metal, hardcore, things like that. 

I do have like the 80s stuff, for instance, 80s punk that was like my world in high school. So you know, Husker Du, Black Flag, Minor Threat, Rites of Spring, all that kind of stuff. And you know, hardcore from the 80s or metal from the 80s like Metallica, Slayer, things like that, Anthrax, you know, the early ‘90s. I mean, Metallica kept going, but you know, my sweet spot is like Ride the Lightning, Through Black Album. That’s where I land. 

I have probably the genre that takes the most space in my store is Jazz. That is by design. I’m a huge Jazz fan, and I know that not many stores in the area have a great Jazz section or that the folks who work there know enough about Jazz. So, it’s pretty well curated and it’s, it’s deep, deep, deep. 

And what helps also is two of the major Jazz labels, Blue Note and (OJC) Original Jazz Classics, have been doing incredible reissue series for the past, I’d say, four years. I think the Blue Note reissue series has been about 10 years. But they’ve really ramped up with their 85th anniversary and this Tone Poet series. 

So, there’s a lot of new releases and new pressings in the Jazz section, which some collectors shy away from. They rather have originals and things like that. But for me, as a collector, I spent many years spending a lot of money trying to track down decent copies of original blue notes and OJCs and Riverside, things like that. And you know, being able to get enough for 30, 40 bucks is to me a Godsend. So I happily carry those. 

Aside from that, you know, all the classic rock, 60s and 70s, because I am solidly, solidly Gen X53, the post punk and new wave is very, very important to me. And so there actually is a bin that we have titled the Journey Forward beginneth here. And that is a bin that has to me anything you need to go forward from 1978, ’79, ongoing to now.

And so in there you’ll find, and actually some of the artists in there are predate that. But it’s all, it’s all the foundational stuff. It’s a bin where I’m like, hey, before you get your, you know, My Morning Jacket or your Belle and Sebastian or even your Chappell Roan like you need to stop in this bend first because this is where all the foundations for this music is. 

So, and there’s the group Death, the original group from around ’74, ’75, the African American group that in my opinion, first recorded punk rock. I know people say the blueprints are with Velvet Underground and New York Dolls and things like that, which, of course, but you know, the sound that we consider punk rock, if you look at the timeline, their lone album predates the Ramones, predates any of those groups, even Sex Pistols. 

And so Death is in there, Big Star in there because, yeah, they came out in ’74, but you tell me anyone of that age had ever heard that group. No. Gen X. We were the ones that co co-opted them, and they belong to us. The Clash, the Jam Smiths, R.E.M., Talking Heads, Ramones, Depeche Mode, the Cure, all this foundational stuff. Bad Brains who Screw. So that’s in this one bin. 

And from there going, we go by generations. So there’s the Gen X bin, which is like your, you know, mid-late 80s into early ‘90s, very early ‘90s. I think it stops around like ‘93, ‘94. And then from there, actually it might go a little further because from there my wife, who’s 35, she curates the,  what we call the millennial Limewire playlist, which from what I’ve been told, people that age, they’re like, wow, I feel way too seen in this bin. And so that’s where you have like your Death Cab and Postal Service and Belle and Sebastian, Cat Power. Who else would be in there?

Liam Dempsey: Yeah, you really do have a lot of everything. It’s pretty good.

Shawn Cephas: And then from there, what I call an indie bin, which is groups from like now that just are right on the precipice of making it so, you know, Mannequin Pussy, which I hope doesn’t get bleeped. Who else? Soccer Mommy, Blond Shell, Bully. I’m trying to think of anyone else right now. I mean, there’s a lot in there, but just, you know, those acts that like, you know, they just haven’t blown up yet. 

And then a bin that I’ve kind of lovingly called Future Classics, which are groups right now that just are there. You know, Black Pumas was her Florence and the Machine. I think I’m missing someone. Chapel Room, actually, I put in there because I mean, she is iconic.

Liam Dempsey: Yeah, I agree with that decision. I support that decision.

Shawn Cephas: Yeah. And then there’s the pop bit, which I do love pop. But there’s a little bit of gatekeepiness in there where, like, groups that like, for instance, I have. What is that group? Greta Van Fleet is in the pop in. Because, honestly, I shouldn’t say gay TV. It’s more like it’s about who the audience is. 

And I’ve had events for Greta Van Fleet in my store, and their audience are, you know, young females presenting or just they’re young. And it’s a demographic that also leans into, you know, into pop. And so they’re in there. The group camp is in there, which I’m sure some would argue with. Yeah. So things like that. 

But then there’s the traditional, what you consider pop. And it goes. That’s multi-generational. So, you know, while Dua Lipa is in there also like Simply Red or, you know, Britney Spears, Madonna, Duran Duran. So it’s, you know, it’s from right in Taylor Swift. So, just anything that really falls under pop is in the pop in. 

And of course, the first thing, although the last thing I mentioned, but the first thing you see when you walk in the store is our soul, classic, soul, neo, soul, hip hop sections. And the reason it’s very intentional that they are front and center, one is to pay honor to my dad’s stores. 

But also, traditionally, black music is usually relegated to like a far corner of a record store. And it’s interesting because that’s from my personal experience, and I felt very validated because in the Luther Vandross documentary came out last year, one of the persons they spoke to in the documentary had actually said that just literally said the exact same thing. It was like the reason Luther Vandross wanted to cross over. 

Why anyone, you know, black artists in the ‘80s wanted to cross over is because the, you know, in your typical record store, the R&B soul sections were off in a far corner of the store. And I know that, I’ve seen that, and that is a very common thing. So I wanted my place to be., when you walk in the door, literally, even if you’re not in the door, from the street looking into the door, the first thing you see is our soul music. So that’s my store.

Liam Dempsey: I like it, I like it. I want to walk with our listeners right into your store, and I’m going to walk in with them. And we see that there’s a new mural on the wall, and as you enter, it’s on your right side, and it’s a mural of an old record shop in Philadelphia. And the mural’s an homage to your father’s record stores. Tell us about your family’s history in music and record stores.

Shawn Cephas: Yeah. One of the things I tell people whenever they, you know, ask, you know, what made you open a record store. And like, you know, it’s literally the only thing I know.

So, yeah. My dad was a musician in Philly and, you know, toured a little bit, not like nationally, but he’d kind of go up the east coast, I think, going North. He never played South, but he was a musician, keyboardist, organist, and electric piano in a group that kind of bounced between R&B and Jazz. It really wasn’t like full-on modern Jazz in the sense of like, Miles or Colt’s Rain, but more how if you saw some Jazz bills, you’d see Ray Charles on there, things like that. And that was kind of my dad’s idol was Ray Charles. 

So he was a musician and met my mom in, I think, ‘66, and she was a fan. She was going to his shows, and she, you know, talked to this guy, and they became a thing. And a year later, at the end of year ‘67, he opened a record store. And the store was named after his moniker. His band was called King James Band. His name was James Evis. And so the store was King James Records. 

And one location that they started out with, and that is the storefront that is on the mural in my store honoring my family’s legacy in record selling. And so, yeah. The store opened in ‘67. And my mom loves to remind me of how hard it was starting out. They literally had just a couple boxes of records. And, you know, back then, used, you know, vinyl was not a thing. It was a new product, 45, long-playing. And, you know, slowly, you know, built into the store that it became part of how they functioned. Because my dad was still a working musician and they had four kids at the time, but I hadn’t come along yet (excuse me), mom would get up, get the kids to school, come back, and open the store. Because my dad’s schedule was playing nights, playing music at night. So once he would get up, he would take over the store. She would get the kids and do that mom thing, store clothes. He’d head off to whatever gig that night. And this continued.

Their first help came when my oldest brother, who would have been in 1969, I believe he became the first employee. And that was out of necessity and also to keep him out of trouble. My brother Andre, from all accounts, was a troublemaker, but was encyclopedic with music and just had a thirst for what was new. And if you ever meet him, his excitement for anything will, it’s infectious. And so his instructions were to sit on the stool, don’t move, and sell records. And he did. And he kind of set the standard for how my dad’s store sold music. And his name was Andre. 

And these are all stories that I’ve been told. I wasn’t around yet, but evidently he thought it would help to sell and bring people in if they could hear the music outside. So he took a speaker and just, like, wired it and rigged it. And, you know, he is a very handy guy. And so this might have been one of his first attempts at this, but just, you know, found some way of fixing it, you know, of fixing it outside the store.

And, you know, we’d just pump the music out to the neighborhood, and folks would come in. And basically he just created this party atmosphere and was always playing, you know, something people hadn’t heard, the newest music. And, yeah. And so that’s that kind of got things going.

And from there were two other employees, I think around 1970, Jeffrey and a guy named Donnell, who became a mentor of mine. And, you know, these were young hippies, young hippies in 1970, big afros and just, you know, creating this amazing young vibe in the store. 

And 1971 came along, and I was born that year. And my dad was trying to still navigate being a musician, business owner, father, and husband. And by September, I think September of ‘71, it just became too much, and he decided to stop playing music and just run the store full-time. Anyway, at some point, all the kids in the family and my mom worked in the store. 

And my first job, probably 10 years old, maybe 11, was to, when the record labels would call,  we were what’s called a reporting store, which is where labels got the numbers for Billboard and Cash Box back then. 

And so since we were a reporting store, we had to keep track of our sales. And certain point in the week, these folks would call the store. And my job evidently must have been after school. My job was to read these numbers off this list for these folks. And then as I got a little older in my teens, my job was to pack the boxes and prep the invoices for returns. 

Back then, you could return a product for credit. Now, that’s not a thing. But things that hadn’t sold or been sitting for a while, you know, I had to find them on the invoice, you know, make sure we had all the numbers there, pack them up. And what that did was while I already had like a thirst enjoyment for music just because of my family, that elevated the curiosity because you’re literally just, you know, on the thing says, you know, C. Parker, Best of Roost Years. And you find this album, and it’s like, Charlie Parker. I wonder what that is. And you know, it couldn’t stream. 

So, a lot of times what I would do, which was not a good thing because it was costing my dad, I would just open these things and start playing them. And so it just, you know, that was the beginning of just, you know, me being encyclopedic is just like having to just. All I did, I was in the backroom by myself and just, you know, going through records and looking at titles and looking at artists and wondering what that sounds like. Who is this?

And so, yeah. And then eventually I worked at my dad’s store, like, you know, at the counter. That was my late teens, which would have been right at the, just the ultimate moment in hip hop, about ‘87,‘88. And just, you know, the story I always tell folks was when NWA Straight Outta Compton came out because of the song after the Police on there in Philly, like, they were confiscating the cassette, if anyone had it. And so we didn’t have it on display; it was under the counter. And I was not allowed to handle the NWA cassettes just because you needed someone who really understood the culture. 

One of the other guys, you know, young guys who work there was in charge of that. And so basically, if someone came in and said, hey, do you have the N.W.A album? It’s like, nope, sorry, we don’t carry it. They literally almost had to have, like, a code. It was like, if it was, you got that, you know, that John with Dr. Dre, whatever. It’s like, yep, we got it. You know. Yeah, you got that Ice Cube thing, whatever. You know, it’s, it’s, you know, there was kind of a language or a kind of code within the community of like, you know, oh, you know, exactly. You know, you know, the deal.

Erik Gudmundson: And you were running a music speakeasy. It sounds like pretty much.

Shawn Cephas: Yeah. And yeah, it was actually interesting because I really did. I did see it happen where, you know, it’s like, hey, do you have the new Straight out of Compton? You know, the guy’s like, sorry, I don’t know what you’re talking about. And yeah, so, you know, that was a cool time to be in my late teens, like, you know, senior in high school and, and be in that scene. And…

Erik Gudmundson: Well, you mentioned the cassettes at about that time, and your store primarily does vinyl, so I agree with you. When I was in high school, and we were, when we were all in high school, for that matter, you know, cassettes were pretty dominant. CDs were certainly coming on the scene, but vinyl was sort of passe at that time. And vinyl has been making an amazing comeback. And as you pointed out earlier, you know, all sorts of young, new artists are releasing their music on vinyl. What do you think is driving this, this larger trend?

Shawn Cephas: That’s a great question. It’s something I don’t think about on a daily basis. Because, you know, vinyl’s been my thing forever. But because I am asked this a lot, I kind of, you know, have enough of it in my brain to like answer a question like this. 

But I think in a more practical sense, I really do feel like when Taylor Swift started putting her Taylor’s versions on vinyl and on social media, she was very much, you know, showing it and talking about it. It got, you know, a young female demographic, you know, buying these things. And when I first opened three and a half years ago, kids were buying, you know, her stuff and some of the hip hop stuff, and didn’t have a record player. It was simple because, I mean, they could listen to it anywhere, you know, but they just, just had that, the aesthetics.

But more the sort of holistic answer I think for a generation that, you know, and it even stretches to Millennials. You know, they were around us. That’s why we call the section the limeware section, because it’s like, you know, they were, you know, stealing and downloading, and you know, there was nothing physical attached to their music. I mean, you know, they were still with the CD era, but a lot of it was burned, you know, and you know, millennials into Gen Z, into Gen Alpha. You know, they’ve never had a physical relationship with their music. And like I always tell people, you know, if you go through your phone and start scrolling, you know, one of the streaming apps or even your own, like Apple Music, whatever, you don’t get the warm fuzzies looking at titles. It doesn’t even like make it appealing to want to listen to it. But I see people at my store, and they start flipping, and you just hear them. It doesn’t even need to be an older person.

There is someone in their 30s flipping. It’s like, oh my gosh, remember that? You know, and at this point, even in your 20s, like, it’s just like, you know, there’s just an emotional connection to seeing the COVID art and having this physical relationship with this music. And I think, you know, these younger generations that never had that, you know, it’s a very new and very cool thing, and I think that’s why it’s continuing to grow. 

I think, you know, to answer your question, like the beginning of it, I think sparked with Taylor Swift and I really do think she almost single-handedly got people at least curious about what this, you know, what are these big things, whatever. And you know, but now that, you know, these folks do have record players now, and I mean, a lot of them are not great players, which bugs me but, you know, they are actually playing it. 

And I think what’s continuing it is, is, you know, when an artist has a release date and to be able to go to a physical store and pick it up and take it home, it’s just, there’s. There’s nothing like that versus, you know, an album drop date. And it’s simply digital. And you pick up your phone and you listen to the records. Like, of course that’s, you know, convenient, but there’s just nothing like, you know, going and getting this new product in your hand and being able to show people, look what I got. Show your friends.

So I think it’s the same thing that attracted, you know, us when we were younger. I mean, granted, there was no other option when I was younger, but like, there still was. You know, whenever I remember at 85, I think when Prince is Around the World Today came out and I brought the record to school to like, show my friends, you know, I got the new Prince record. But yeah, I think that’s.

Liam Dempsey: Shawn, do you know if the physical process of making the records, you know, literally pressing the vinyl disc with the music on, has that changed since the heyday of vinyl or is that, I mean, obviously it’s bigger and it’s more, and it’s probably more. But, like, is the process generally the same still?

Shawn Cephas: Yeah, the process is the same. The technology hasn’t changed. The big difference is there are so few pressing plans, which is why when folks ask me like, you know, what’s with the prices and things like that, because they are expensive. It literally, I kind of compare it to like the craft beer type thing. It’s like, you know, you know, in the old days, for collectors, if you look at the back of capital albums like Beatles records, there’s a number in the bottom right corner and that number was the pressing plant.

And, you know, I think number one, I’m embarrassed. It’s not off top of my head, but like, number one was Scranton, Pennsylvania. So, like in Scranton there was a pressing plant. And, you know, so all over the country, the US they were pressing plants. 

And now I think there are four major plants in the world, like internationally. So that’s not like if the three of us had a band and we wanted to press some albums. That’s not what I mean. There’s places all over the country for that. But for, you know, a new Adele record or a Taylor Swift record, that’s going to be a major plant. And I believe there’s only four. 

And so, you know, obviously scarcity creates you know, price increase. And I’m not, you know, some of these, you know, I wonder, you know, if some of these prices could, if it has to be this expensive. But you know, some of that is, you know, things beyond our means and the market and you know, these executives who want to make a lot of money. 

But the one thing that has definitely changed, I do have to let people know when they’re in the store. In the old days, a picture disc was not really meant for playing. You know, they would destroy your needle and they sounded terrible because I literally think they put a film over top of the record to create. You know, I have a Culture Club picture disc from when I was a teen preteen and. 

But what I don’t know the technology for this, but picture discs now sound incredible. There’s a teeny, teeny bit of surface noise. I kind of hate service noise. So for me, I mean, it’s still fine. Once the music plays, you don’t hear it. But once you, when you first drop the needle before the music starts, you do hear some service noise. But man, whatever the technology is for making picture discs now and colored vinyl, I have seen some videos on that, but specific, specifically picture disc, they sound really, really good. So for listeners who may be of a certain age, don’t shy away from picture discs. In my opinion.

Erik Gudmundson: That’s an interesting subtlety. Let me ask you one more audio file subtlety type question, if I could. And that is with the production of the music that goes onto the records. Because a big part of why a lot of people like older records is it’s a completely analog experience. It was recorded in analog. You’re playing it back in analog, you’re not getting that conversion over to digital. Modern artists that are recording and releasing new albums on, on vinyl, are they also recording in analog or are they recording in digital? And then  it’s being laid down to that analog medium.

Shawn Cephas: Things are almost exclusively digital now. This is more, this is like switching scope. This is more because my brother in law runs a studio and records a lot of artists and my wife is a recording and you know, performing musician. 

And so my brother in law, he has, you know, his, the band he was in. I’m not sure what the status of the band right now, but they have pressed to vinyl and he’s had to remix and remaster. And so what I do know because of him is that if an artist records something and streams it and then they’re like, hey, we want to press vinyl of this he has to go back and remix and remaster it. Which is why you will hear differences in streaming. Even if you’re streaming on like a very high quality, you know, like Apple Music and going into a, you know, a nice Bluetooth, and like if your system’s solid, you will still hear a sonic difference between that and vinyl because it actually is a different mix and mastered differently.

An interesting example of that about three years ago, the last Lorde album before the store opened, you know, huge fan of hers and she, you know, I think I can’t remember if they both came out the same day, if the physical product and the stream came out the same day. But I was so excited that I woke up at six in the morning and listened to the streaming version.’

And later that day, yeah, it must have been the same day because I think later that day I got the vinyl copy and my wife and I listened and she’s the one, she’s incredible ear and she’s like, whoa, this is not the same record. And like we went back and like, and then like there’s just, you know, a guitar that was, you know, very apparent in the streaming one is like you could almost, you barely hear it on the physical copy. 

And you know, part of that could be artistic choice, where you know, to press a record, you know, that needed to be in the queue months in advance. And it could have been a whole thing of like last, you know, you can upload something, you know, at the absolute last minute. And so it could have been a choice of like after the fact, be like, ooh, I don’t like that. And changing a mix at that point.

So that’s what in that case. But you will definitely hear differences sonically between vinyl and streaming. Even though getting back to your question, the majority of things are digital these days.

Erik Gudmundson: Well, let’s go back to your shop. You’ve been on Main Street in Phoenixville since 2021. You started at 28 Main Street, but now you’re at 10 Main Street, and before that, you were selling records at pop-up shops and venues. Talk to us about your journey with selling records and how you decided that 2021, of all year,s was the right time to open a brick and mortar plac,e as we were all recovering from pandemic lockdowns.

Shawn Cephas: Yeah. I wish it was a more skilled and financial and you know, just a more academic reason for that specific time, but I’ll tell you, so that started, I mean again, you know, my dad passed away in 1997. It was my task to close the stores. And that happened in ’98 for multiple reasons. 

But after my dad passed away and closed the two stores at the time, I did forget to get to that one point. We had three stores, and most of the time we had two. But right after that, I actually just being behind the count of the record store is just how I exist. 

And so I actually started working part-time at a Sam Goody in 1998 and worked there for a couple of years just to be in a record store and you know, life moves on and you have corporate jobs and do things like that just because, you know, records were not a thing or extremely niche. Like the used record store, you know, was, it was kind of thing in the late 90s and the 2000s and the High Fidelity type of thing. 

But, you know, it always been in my mind, and when I’d work at job,s and all of a sudden music comes up and I just start talking like this. And inherently, someone’s like, isn’t there something you can do with what you know, like, you know, working a bank is not exactly what you should be doing. And I’m like, I know, I just don’t know what to do.

And so eight years ago, seven years ago, sorry. On our honeymoon, my wife and I were talking and just the idea of what it would look like to have a record store came up. We’re sitting on the beach in York, Maine and just talking about what it would look like to have a record store and, you know, a fun honeymoon. Like, you know, we went back to where we were staying, and like I started sketching out like, what that, you know, what this. Just visualizing this place and got really excited. But literally, as soon as we got home from our honeymoon, she was starting grad school, and I had the corporate job, which had the benefits. So it’s like this. There’s no way this can happen.

Now, I’ve always been a person that, you know, the mindset of like, you know, a dream deferred, like, you know, often doesn’t happen, and if there’s a possibility, how can this happen right now? And just by a couple of circumstances. I connected with a coffee house in Phoenixville and talked to the owner about what if I just set up a table and some crates on a Saturday morning? And he was all about it, and I’m not selling my music.

Then I did some research and found a national distributor and got that relationship going. And the initial piece also was, I was friends with a local artist whose art was specifically about music. He made coasters Art prints that he created of musicians. 

And so I did everything, you know, so this pop-up was a full-on business, had a state business license and retail, like state tax, you know, forms and all that kind of stuff. And tax ID and got the name registered, had a graphic design artist, like, kind of put the finishing touches on my logo. I kind of had a logo. And a friend of mine, she was like, she goes, it’s better if the, if, your font can’t be found somewhere, if it’s an original font.

So she kind of took what I had done and created a unique font for it. And yeah, of course the name, Forever Changes. And yeah, started out as a pop-up and that was June of 2019, and that went on until March 2020, which we all know about that. 

And but I still, you know, all the inventory was in our house. Then, over lockdown, I would post, you know, records that I had, and if people wanted them, I’d do a porch drop off locally. And then once things lifted by November 2021, maybe before then, maybe October, I’m not sure, the place I was doing the pop-up, they didn’t reopen. 

And so there was another coffee house in town, Steel City, that offered me the opportunity to continue my pop-up in their space on Saturdays and did that for another year. November 2020 was when we did that and was perfectly fine with that until October of 2021, when, Okay, to dial back just a second. When we were to go back seven years on that beach again, I had a place in mind. I literally was visualizing a certain space just almost randomly, like, you know, just I had a specific storefront in mind, and I’m pretty sure it was October of 2021. And a friend of mine’s like, hey, there’s a storefront on Main Street that’s available. I just want to let you know, I was like, okay. And walk down. And it was the exact storefront that I was picturing back in 2018. And I was like, okay, that’s some kind of a sign.

I don’t know. And so within a month, we opened the store, and most of it was, you know, people like, how’d you do it? And like, I already had all the paperwork stuff, the stuff that takes, in my opinion, takes time was done, and all the other resource things I needed. 

I had people, you know, I knew a woman that does like, you know, window signs, things like that. A friend of mine, another woman, she makes, she does woodworking. She made my bins. A friend of Mine, he made the sort of front, like sort of the current, you know, like a wall, like we call it the wall, but like a display for like, you know, the current releases. Everything was. 

And then since as far as decor, it was really easy because that artist, Brian Hearns, that I was selling his stuff, he had these huge, large pieces and we just hung them against one of the walls. It was really easy to put together. It’s weird how quickly that storefront happened. 

And so, yeah, that’s how we went. You know, I wish it was more of a, you know, we had a specific timeline and looked at the, you know, finances and accounting and everything. But no, it was simply that this storefront that I had visualized was available, and that’s where we landed.

Liam Dempsey: And I love that. I absolutely love that. Here it is. Let’s do it. I love it. I love it. 

Shawn, I’ve been into your shop there on Main street at 10 now, 10 these days, 10 Main Street. I’ve been in there a handful of times now, and it’s really clear that you like Jazz music. And in the interest of time, I will say, can you try to tell us what Jazz means to you in maybe three to five minutes? I feel like you could spend a weekend educating us on all the wonderful things about Jazz. But just kind of briefly, why does it matter so much to you and how do you welcome those interested in learning about the genre? Maybe folks who don’t understand Jazz the way you do?

Shawn Cephas: Sure. I will be brief. What Jazz means to me, culturally, it was created and perfected by black musicians. Obviously. There are plenty, countless musicians, you know, white and other musings of other cultures and ethnicities that play Jazz, of course. But you know, this music started in Congo Square in New Orleans, out of the African experience in America.

And for me, it is the pinnacle of black excellence. You know, when I think about Ellington, you know, these pieces are unbelievable and so complex. And once you get to bebop with Charlie Parker and Dizzy Gillespie and everything that came after that, it’s just, it’s mind blowing what these musicians created. And so from that perspective, it’s extremely important to me and feeds my soul. 

But also as a music, as a sound, for me personally, it just, It’s ever… You can always listen to it. You can listen to the same piece over and over again. You’re always getting something out of it. There’s never a point when, I mean, there are albums of mine that are lovingly exhausted, exhausting, because I just listen to them over and over again and each time it’s like I missed something, I got to hear it again and I just, I love that. And so that’s for me as far as educating folks and sharing that experience. 

One thing I found with Jazz is there is a Jazz for everyone. And I truly mean that. And someone might be listening be like, nope, I’ve heard it, I don’t like it. There’s like the soul Jazz, the groove stuff that almost sounds like a song without words. It’s a very locked in, tight groove. There’s, you know, bluesy Jazz, there’s, you know, vocal Jazz fusion, you know, Jazz rock. There’s something for everyone. 

And in that, you know, if you, I have not been proven wrong yet, but if you just play it and take out all of the academia and all the gatekeepiness or, you know, just like, just listen to this, you know, or just have it playing and evidently, you know, not evidently, you know, without question, you know, the listener be like, wow, this is okay. This is nice, you know, and you know, just sharing that experience just…

I think that’s one another thing I love about Jazz. Like, it can just be, you know, Bill Evans, the great Jazz piano player, he can either be really great background music, having a dinner party, some wine and cheese, and having friends over and it’s playing and it’s just creating the vibe for the evening, or you can sit and just listen and like just take in everything that’s happening, you know, and that the classic verse trio with Paul Motian’s, you know, brushwork and Bill Scott Lafaro and his insane bass runs. 

And you can, you know, take it in that way or just have it on and just, or just, you know, it just, you know, I have a family that they have two pretty hyper boys and they bought a Bill Evans record and it just calms their boys down like crazy. And it’s like they don’t care about, you know, the legacy of Scott LaFaro or, or just, you know, or, you know, how, you know, Bill Evans’ style changed once he passed away. 

And just the different bass players and drummers, that they could care less, they just know that this music calms their boys down, and you know, so yeah, that’s that could be like he’s more important than that. But also these boys are like 10, 12 years old listening to Jazz, you know, so it’s like, it’s in there and I’m just curious to, you know, see what these teenage and 20something guys are going to be with like, it’s like I love Jazz and I guess it’s from my parents playing it when I was like 10. But, yeah. That’s… 

Liam Dempsey: That’s Nora Jones. For our family, Nora Jones’s CDs were just on constant loop when, when my little ones were younger. And I tell you what, I’ve never looked at her albums. I don’t know any of the album names, but I can sing along with every song and play them over and over and over.

Erik Gudmundson: Well, that’s a whole different perspective on music enjoyment and even music utility. And I wonder in this age of digital music and algorithms, introducing listeners to new music, an in-person record store needs to be extra special to stand out. And in our trips to your shop, we feel like you absolutely have that something special. You can call it too fancy and say je ne sais quoi. I don’t know. But, how do you try to sell records to your customers when they enter your store?

Shawn Cephas: That’s a great question. And it really does start with my brother Andre, from you know, at my dad’s store. And you know, it sounds really pretentious, but he really did set the standard for how the store sold records and how I learned, and I hate even calling it selling. I’ve had customers with an armful of records, and they’re like, you’re really good at selling us. And I’m like, I haven’t sold. I’m just telling you how much I love something. I’m playing you something. 

With streaming, we can, you know, it allows us to, you know, they’re not buying the stuff site unseen, they’re listening to it. And so you know, I think the biggest part of answering that question is it’s not selling in the sense of, you know, I’m trying to convince you, you need something that you may not need or you know, I think the convincing, the sort of, that element of sales isn’t there. It’s more sharing passion and sharing, just sharing. 

And so you know, the full, the complete process of selling, to use your word, starts with just the music playing in the store. And so what I like to do is find something that isn’t, I’ve learned at this point and I actually learned pretty quickly when we opened the store that it is interesting the general person’s tolerance of what’s playing. And I know from me going into record stores it was a great, great store in Lancasters to go to. Unfortunately, it closed a couple years ago. But this guy loved like metal and Hardcore and stuff. And I’d go in and I’m like, oh, my God, this is driving me insane. But he had a really great, like, dollar section, so I would just put up with it to get through and get an armful of records. And I’m like, oh, my God, get me out of here. 

And I never wanted my store to be, you know, a whole thing of like, oh, my God, like, I would spend more time, but I can’t handle this. And so the way I tell my employees is, like, it’s not really the time to play what you like. You’re really playing for who’s in the store, or who’s walking by, and who could come into the store. 

So, you know, in that, in that way, like, I’m looking for something kind of, you know, with a groove vibe. Just something to kind of like, you know, a little head nod, like, ooh, this is. You know. And at the same time, I like to be something that people might not have heard.

There’s an album that came out, I think, in February, a New Blue Note artist. Her name is Maya Delilah. It’s her first album, hasn’t toured. Most people know nothing about her. I don’t even think she has a Wikipedia. But this album is solid. It is, it is. It’s just. It’s got a groove. She’s a guitar. She’s a brilliant guitarist. And so, you know, that thing goes on and, like, open the door and people just, like, just come in because it’s like, I want more of that. And they’re in there. 

And I keep selling this record, you know, because, you know, but even that record aside, once they’re in there, you know, you don’t have to lean into what’s playing. It’s like once you kind of, you’re kind of doing a DJ profile thing of, like, okay, you know, it’s two older guys who order white guys, they’re in the 70s being, you know, reminiscing about Jethro Tahl and stuff. And, you know, I’m thinking what’s playing might not be what they’re into. So, you know, maybe I’ll, you know, pop on, you know, like Japanese Breakfast or something or.. Yeah, it might be a little too.

Pushing it too much maybe. Oh, Black Pumas for those two guys. A perfect thing to transition into his black bonus. You know, it’s got a rock sound, got a little bit of soul, kind of retro thing. Something these two guys might not have heard. And so, you know, put that on and you meet the customers where they are and you start making that conversation. And the other piece of that is knowing music. I have a lot of teenagers who work for me, and the thing I push on them so much is you have to know this stuff.

Liam Dempsey: So, your emphasis on knowing the music leads really nicely into my next question, because it’s really, where are you keeping abreast of music? You know, there’s not really music magazines in the way there were when we were younger, and there’s, you know, a limited selection on the radio that would play things. XP is one, I suppose. But where are you learning about new music? How do you decide what to buy? How do you know what’s hip and trending? You’re talking about artists and musicians that you know of, but the wider public might not. How do you stay abreast, and how do you decide what to buy?

Shawn Cephas: Gotta collect your resources. You know, I know I’m 53. I know. You know, I’m at the age of like, I like what I like. I’m not saying that’s me, but that’s the mentality of someone my age being stuck in the 80s, early 90s, like that can happen. 

But all of this is honestly on-the-job learning. When I first opened, and actually the very, even before I opened a store when I had a pop up and I was in this coffee house and most of the young ladies in the coffee house, they were young and they kept talking about this Mac Miller guy, and I honestly had never heard of the guy. It was what, 20, 19, or 20 20? And I was like, okay, whatever, you know, and you know, I was talking to someone else being like, yeah, these girls keep talking like, oh, he’s a thing you need to, you know, I’m like, oh, really? Okay. And kind of putting aside like, I know everything, and be like, okay, there’s a lot I don’t know.

I, you know, and just once you and I had an employee that like, and even a customer had a customer that like, it’s like, hey, can you get, you know, and he was a hip hop guy. And I was like, sure, I’ll order it for you. I remember, yeah, the order came in and the special order was sitting on the counter, and someone else came in, was like, oh my gosh, you have that? And I was like, well, actually it says, do you have any more? And it’s like, okay, duly noted. You know, and you start kind of knowing who you can listen to, who you should listen to.

And some of it really is as crude as, I just know people that, you know, when they mention something, or at this point, I’ll even reach out to them. It’s like, hey, that one guy is like, hey, what’s going on in hip hop? And he goes, Oh, my gosh. So and so, and is like, okay, just start making that list. 

I had an employee that, like, she was always like, about a year before chaperone became a thing, she was like, can you get an album by someone in chaperone? And that has always been her. And so, you know, as. As non, you know, you know, corporate is just like, just listening to what people. People that I know are into something that I would have no idea about. But at the same time, you know, I follow record labels on social media and like, that’s.

I knew about the Mind of the little thing before that album came out. I was like. And that’s why I ordered. I’m like, okay, you know, you know, check that out. Even before the album came out, when Blond Shell’s first album came out, she opened for Suki Waterhouse. And XBN did a review of the show, and they were like, oh, the opener was really great. And you know, whenever that pre-order popped up, I’m like, I’m gonna couple, you know, just. Just literally.

And part of my job is trying to figure out what’s next, what’s hip, what’s, you know, a generation. Two generations younger than me, what they’re into. It’s just, it is as much a part of my job as doing. Doing the books, payroll, you know, it’s as important as that. 

And also, I do also subscribe to Billboard, because one thing I found really early was that, there are so many sources of getting music. I had two people about two years ago asking for a song, separate, totally separate, but literally within a week of each other. And they had heard them from their peloton instructor. I’m like, I can’t keep up with this. And then people, you know, you know, Steve Lacy, you know, was like, you know, that was a TikTok thing. And I’m like, I can’t. And you know, Billboard literally has a chart for TikTok or a chart for, you know, I’m like, okay, I just need one resource for this. What are people listening to? Yeah. And so there’s a lot of. There’s no specific one, but there are a lot of ways. But it is an active part of what I do.

Erik Gudmundson: I think so much of music you discover comes from community. And for example, I take a lot of yoga classes. And there are many yoga classes where one of the other students will raise their hand and say, what was that song you played? They want to know, like, so it’s amazing where you can find new stuff.

Let me ask you about your own personal taste, though. What’s one band or musician you love that would surprise your acquaintances to hear?

Shawn Cephas: So my wife loves this because it’s the weirdest thing. So yes. I’m a 53-year-old African American from Philly, and one of my absolute favorite bands I’m obsessed with is the group Poco.

And for those who don’t know, Poco was a country rock group whose first album came out in 69. And yeah, it is probably the whitest thing, but it’s like I. And to me, that’s a part of like music is universal. It’s not about like I look like this, you have to listen to this. Like Poco, they’re killer. And you know, which, you know, my favorite band in the world is Buffalo Springfield. And so they came out of that. So you know, that’s why. But I am obsessed with Poco.

Liam Dempsey: Shawn, I want to jump into another one of our important questions. And when you and I, and Erik were having coffee recently, it was pretty clear that a lot of people know you in your neck of the woods up there in Phoenixville, and inevitably, you know a lot of people. So I want to ask you what might be a difficult question for you. Tell us about a business or nonprofit in Chester County that more folks should know about it.

Shawn Cephas: I would say two places in Phoenixville and one around here. We all know of it, but maybe other folks don’t. Which is PACs, which is Phoenixville Area Community Services. And this is an organization that literally just feeds folks. They, you know, you can donate food to them. I think some of the local restaurants provide, you know, some product to them, whatever, but you know, you’ll see a line out there, I forgot what days of the week. But you know, they just, it’s very simple. Let’s feed our community.

The other one is Anne’s Heart, which is a smaller organization, but at the same time just providing food, clothing for folks in need. And there’s one more, sorry, one more. One of my teens that works for me, a high school kid, she actually runs a non-profit and it’s called Kit’s Closet. 

And what Kit’s Closet does is it provides clothing for young women or female presenting who don’t, you know, who don’t have what they, you know, it’s all the socially needed, you know, a prom dress or just clothes for school, just so they’re, you know, they’re not being made fun of for not having the gear they should have. And it’s free. And her storefront, using air quotes, it looks like, you know, a clothing store. So they’re, you know, they don’t feel like they’re going to some. It just creates an environment where a young lady can shop for what she needs for you know, homecoming, prom, something for school or just to hang out with her friends. But there’s no payment. And so those are the three, I would say.

Erik Gudmundson: Thank you for those suggestions. They’re all impactful organizations. So, I appreciate you sharing their names. What about Forever Changes? Are you currently hiring?

Shawn Cephas: Not right now. And you know, I’m always, you know, I always want to keep a conversation open, but at this point I kind of scout out and I say kids because, you know, honestly, I love young folks working for me because they just have an energy and I don’t know, it’s a great energy.

And so at this point I kind of have a cue like there’s a young lady who had just graduated high school, and we are trying to find a way for her to work for me this summer, but her schedule’s too busy. She’s going away to college, but hopefully next summer. There’s a really young cat, he’s a 15-year-old guy. He’s helping me with some inventory in the back and just kind of like he’s not ready for the front yet, but just he’s literally almost doing what I was doing when I was a kid, which was just, you know, seeing titles, you know, having the alphabetized things and just seeing these different album covers and bands. And, you know, he’ll ask questions like, you know, is Jethro Tull a person or a group? And I’d explain that he, you know, didn’t know what Motown was, and explained that. And like, I’m totally, you know, I’m not one of these.

He doesn’t know what, like he’s 15, you know, in 20, 25. Like, why should you know what Motown is? And so, yeah, so, you know, I’ve got a really cool crew now, high school kids, and I’ve got some in the pipeline to the point where this family came up from Texas. And the daughter, man, she, man, we just could talk like peers, you know, I think she was maybe 15 or something. And I like sort of joked and sort of didn’t because her, this girl’s grandparents, live up here. And that’s why they were up visiting. I’m like, hey, if she wants to spend a summer, you know, and her grandparents were there, like, okay, she can stay with us. And I’m like, I’m kind of being serious. If she wants to spend a summer with her grandparents and we’re here next summer, you know, let’s do it.

So not hiring and you know, but yeah, if there’s someone who is such a unique person that can do this job. And so I like kind of collecting the people that, you know, that seem like they’re going to be good employees.

Liam Dempsey: Well, I’ll be keeping an eye on your website in case you start offering opportunities for 50-year-old white guy volunteers. 

On a serious note, though, Shawn, community matters to you. That’s come clear in our conversations with you and through your record store. Forever changes. You’re doing a lot to support the community. Let’s flip that around a little bit. How can the community support the work that you and your family are doing through the record store?

Shawn Cephas: Great question. You know, I think obviously the big ones to buy things, you know, the, if you don’t have a record player and there’s nothing in my store that you can purchase, you know, just telling folks about the store and social media, just, you know, I also DJ, vinyl DJing and so, you know, if there’s a gig out there, I’m doing something for. Oh, I forgot the organization is doing something tomorrow. I think the… Why I think it’s a black music month. It’s kind of a program just doing like three hours of, you know, black music, whatever, but just, you know, getting the word out, you know, talking about the store. Yeah.

Anyway, you know, it’s the way I market myself. You know, there’s a lot of record stores around me, and the way I hope to bring people into the store is that they’re going into a place to talk to and to interact with someone who knows music. I’m not going to show you. And if you bring up a band that I don’t know and be like, oh yeah, them, you know, it’s like, I’m not familiar with them. Tell me more. 

And you know, and at the same time, you know, I just, a quick, quick story about how I work is that there was a young guy who came into my store and he had an $80 Hendrix box set in his hand. And I was like, oh, you know, you’re a fan? He goes, No, actually this is my first Hendrix album. Whatever. I’m like, okay, no, this should not be. It’s great. It’s the live and Maui set, but sonically it’s not the best. You know, it was a live recording that they had do a lot of work to get it presentable. 

And like this should not be your first Hendrix album, you know, so I directed them to re-experience and you know, so I went from an $80 sale to a $30 sale. And you know, in my mindset, it’s like instead of walking, be like cool. Sold that. And this guy may never buy another Hendrix album or another album from me. It’s like I’d rather him have a proper introduction and think, oh, that guy, wow, he directed me the right way. I’m going to go back. So yeah, that’s, you know, that’s how I exist. And if anyone wants to help in that cause would be great.

Liam Dempsey: Shawn Cephas, owner of Forever Changes Record Store, in addition to popping into your shop during business hours, where can listeners connect with you and hopefully pick up their next favorite record?

Shawn Cephas: Well, we do, I want social media for all of its faults, on Instagram and Facebook. I do a lot more on Instagram, and I, you know, I do have a blue sky. I try to keep up with that, but I don’t as much, but which I need to get back on.

But, yeah. Social media. And on social media you can find our events calendar because we do a lot of, we book Jazz shows every third Friday at the Phoenix here in Phoenixville we have a Jazz series at Soul Joel’s. 

And at Sunnybrook in Pottstown we have a not as steady oh, the Soul Joel’s is every first Thursday. We are skipping July because it’s July 3rd, and so the August 01 is August 7th, I believe, and that is not to be missed. And at the gym in Spring City, it’s not as the frequency is a little more it’s not as, you know, solid. But we book Jazz shows there. 

So, follow the socials and follow those venues for stuff we’re doing there. We do some things in the store. There’s a local brewery club or Brew Meister Club that has an event at our store. The next one is next Thursday, the last Thursday of the month. And so yeah, just the socials and just check the calendars and see what’s going on. And, yeah.

Erik Gudmundson: Shawn, this was an absolute treat for me, and I look forward to seeing you around the county and, of course, at Forever Changes. Thank you.

Shawn Cephas: Thank you. It was a treat for me as well. Thanks guys.

Liam Dempsey: And thanks to you, our listeners, for tuning in today. We so value your time and your attention. Please know that we will keep or post all sorts of notes over on our website at startlocal.co. I’m gonna try to list and link to all the artists that Shawn mentioned. 

So, it’s a musical educational journey for you today, folks. Again, everything’s over on startlocal.co. We publish a new episode every fortnight, and you can catch our show wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. 

Take a moment to subscribe to our email list to make sure that you keep up to date with all that we’re doing. And of course, we welcome you to connect with us. Follow us on LinkedIn and other social media. 

Thanks so much. Until the next time. Bye for now.